Daily Kos

Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party

Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 07:38:41 AM PDT

Update [2005-9-30 10:38:41 by Armando]: From the diaries by Armando. Since it is not our normal practice to promote diaries from our representatives, I think I should explain why I chose to promote Senator Obama's diary. Simply put, Sen. Obama's diary addresses in substance an issue that has been a major focus of discussion in our community. Given the source, the topic and the specific thoughts, and the discussion sure to ensue, it is my judgment that promotion was the right thing to do.

I read with interest your recent discussion regarding my comments on the floor(1, 2, 3) during the debate on John Roberts' nomination.  I don't get a chance to follow blog traffic as regularly as I would like, and rarely get the time to participate in the discussions.  I thought this might be a good opportunity to offer some thoughts about not only judicial confirmations, but how to bring about meaningful change in this country.

Maybe some of you believe I could have made my general point more artfully, but it's precisely because many of these groups are friends and supporters that I felt it necessary to speak my mind.

There is one way, over the long haul, to guarantee the appointment of judges that are sensitive to issues of social justice, and that is to win the right to appoint them by recapturing the presidency and the Senate.  And I don't believe we get there by vilifying good allies, with a lifetime record of battling for progressive causes, over one vote or position.    I am convinced that, our mutual frustrations and strongly-held beliefs notwithstanding, the strategy driving much of Democratic advocacy, and the tone of much of our rhetoric, is an impediment to creating a workable progressive majority in this country.  

According to the storyline that drives many advocacy groups and Democratic activists - a storyline often reflected in comments on this blog - we are up against a sharply partisan, radically conservative, take-no-prisoners Republican party.  They have beaten us twice by energizing their base with red meat rhetoric and single-minded devotion and discipline to their agenda.  In order to beat them, it is necessary for Democrats to get some backbone, give as good as they get, brook no compromise, drive out Democrats who are interested in "appeasing" the right wing, and enforce a more clearly progressive agenda.  The country, finally knowing what we stand for and seeing a sharp contrast, will rally to our side and thereby usher in a new progressive era.

I think this perspective misreads the American people.  From traveling throughout Illinois and more recently around the country, I can tell you that Americans are suspicious of labels and suspicious of jargon.  They don't think George Bush is mean-spirited or prejudiced, but have become aware that his administration is irresponsible and often incompetent.  They don't think that corporations are inherently evil (a lot of them work in corporations), but they recognize that big business, unchecked, can fix the game to the detriment of working people and small entrepreneurs.  They don't think America is an imperialist brute, but are angry that the case to invade Iraq was exaggerated, are worried that we have unnecessarily alienated existing and potential allies around the world, and are ashamed by events like those at Abu Ghraib which violate our ideals as a country.

It's this non-ideological lens through which much of the country viewed Judge Roberts' confirmation hearings.   A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession.  Instead, they have good reason to believe he is a conservative judge who is (like it or not) within the mainstream of American jurisprudence, a judge appointed by a conservative president who could have done much worse (and probably, I fear, may do worse with the next nominee).  While they hope Roberts doesn't swing the court too sharply to the right, a majority of Americans think that the President should probably get the benefit of the doubt on a clearly qualified nominee.

A plausible argument can be made that too much is at stake here and now, in terms of privacy issues, civil rights, and civil liberties, to give John Roberts the benefit of the doubt.  That certainly was the operating assumption of the advocacy groups involved in the nomination battle.  

I shared enough of these concerns that I voted against Roberts on the floor this morning.  But short of mounting an all-out filibuster -- a quixotic fight I would not have supported; a fight I believe Democrats would have lost both in the Senate and in the court of public opinion; a fight that would have been difficult for Democratic senators defending seats in states like North Dakota and Nebraska that are essential for Democrats to hold if we hope to recapture the majority; and a fight that would have effectively signaled an unwillingness on the part of Democrats to confirm any Bush nominee, an unwillingness which I believe would have set a dangerous precedent for future administrations -- blocking Roberts was not a realistic option.

In such circumstances, attacks on Pat Leahy, Russ Feingold and the other Democrats who, after careful consideration, voted for Roberts make no sense.  Russ Feingold, the only Democrat to vote not only against war in Iraq but also against the Patriot Act, doesn't become complicit in the erosion of civil liberties simply because he chooses to abide by a deeply held and legitimate view that a President, having won a popular election, is entitled to some benefit of the doubt when it comes to judicial appointments. Like it or not, that view has pretty strong support in the Constitution's design.

The same principle holds with respect to issues other than judicial nominations.  My colleague from Illinois, Dick Durbin, spoke out forcefully - and voted against - the Iraqi invasion.  He isn't somehow transformed into a "war supporter" - as I've heard some anti-war activists suggest - just because he hasn't called for an immediate withdrawal of American troops. He may be simply trying to figure out, as I am, how to ensure that U.S. troop withdrawals occur in such a way that we avoid all-out Iraqi civil war, chaos in the Middle East, and much more costly and deadly interventions down the road.  A pro-choice Democrat doesn't become anti-choice because he or she isn't absolutely convinced that a twelve-year-old girl should be able to get an operation without a parent being notified.  A pro-civil rights Democrat doesn't become complicit in an anti-civil rights agenda because he or she questions the efficacy of certain affirmative action programs. And a pro-union Democrat doesn't become anti-union if he or she makes a determination that on balance, CAFTA will help American workers more than it will harm them.

Or to make the point differently: How can we ask Republican senators to resist pressure from their right wing and vote against flawed appointees like John Bolton, if we engage in similar rhetoric against Democrats who dissent from our own party line?  How can we expect Republican moderates who are concerned about the nation's fiscal meltdown to ignore Grover Norquist's threats if we make similar threats to those who buck our party orthodoxy?    

I am not drawing a facile equivalence here between progressive advocacy groups and right-wing advocacy groups.  The consequences of their ideas are vastly different. Fighting on behalf of the poor and the vulnerable is not the same as fighting for homophobia and Halliburton.  But to the degree that we brook no dissent within the Democratic Party, and demand fealty to the one, "true" progressive vision for the country, we risk the very thoughtfulness and openness to new ideas that are required to move this country forward.  When we lash out at those who share our fundamental values because they have not met the criteria of every single item on our progressive "checklist," then we are essentially preventing them from thinking in new ways about problems.  We are tying them up in a straightjacket and forcing them into a conversation only with the converted.

Beyond that, by applying such tests, we are hamstringing our ability to build a majority.  We won't be able to transform the country with such a polarized electorate.  Because the truth of the matter is this: Most of the issues this country faces are hard.  They require tough choices, and they require sacrifice.  The Bush Administration and the Republican Congress may have made the problems worse, but they won't go away after President Bush is gone.  Unless we are open to new ideas, and not just new packaging, we won't change enough hearts and minds to initiate a serious energy or fiscal policy that calls for serious sacrifice.  We won't have the popular support to craft a foreign policy that meets the challenges of globalization or terrorism while avoiding isolationism and protecting civil liberties.  We certainly won't have a mandate to overhaul a health care policy that overcomes all the entrenched interests that are the legacy of a jerry-rigged health care system.  And we won't have the broad political support, or the effective strategies, required to lift large numbers of our fellow citizens out of numbing poverty.

The bottom line is that our job is harder than the conservatives' job.  After all, it's easy to articulate a belligerent foreign policy based solely on unilateral military action, a policy that sounds tough and acts dumb; it's harder to craft a foreign policy that's tough and smart.  It's easy to dismantle government safety nets; it's harder to transform those safety nets so that they work for people and can be paid for.  It's easy to embrace a theological absolutism; it's harder to find the right balance between the legitimate role of faith in our lives and the demands of our civic religion.  But that's our job.  And I firmly believe that whenever we exaggerate or demonize, or oversimplify or overstate our case, we lose.  Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose.  A polarized electorate that is turned off of politics, and easily dismisses both parties because of the nasty, dishonest tone of the debate, works perfectly well for those who seek to chip away at the very idea of government because, in the end, a cynical electorate is a selfish electorate.

Let me be clear: I am not arguing that the Democrats should trim their sails and be more "centrist."  In fact, I think the whole "centrist" versus "liberal" labels that continue to characterize the debate within the Democratic Party misses the mark.  Too often, the "centrist" label seems to mean compromise for compromise sake, whereas on issues like health care, energy, education and tackling poverty, I don't think Democrats have been bold enough.  But I do think that being bold involves more than just putting more money into existing programs and will instead require us to admit that some existing programs and policies don't work very well.  And further, it will require us to innovate and experiment with whatever ideas hold promise (including market- or faith-based ideas that originate from Republicans).

Our goal should be to stick to our guns on those core values that make this country great, show a spirit of flexibility and sustained attention that can achieve those goals, and try to create the sort of serious, adult, consensus around our problems that can admit Democrats, Republicans and Independents of good will.  This is more than just a matter of "framing," although clarity of language, thought, and heart are required.  It's a matter of actually having faith in the American people's ability to hear a real and authentic debate about the issues that matter.

Finally, I am not arguing that we "unilaterally disarm" in the face of Republican attacks, or bite our tongue when this Administration screws up.  Whenever they are wrong, inept, or dishonest, we should say so clearly and repeatedly; and whenever they gear up their attack machine, we should respond quickly and forcefully.  I am suggesting that the tone we take matters, and that truth, as best we know it, be the hallmark of our response.  

My dear friend Paul Simon used to consistently win the votes of much more conservative voters in Southern Illinois because he had mastered the art of "disagreeing without being disagreeable," and they trusted him to tell the truth.  Similarly, one of Paul Wellstone's greatest strengths was his ability to deliver a scathing rebuke of the Republicans without ever losing his sense of humor and affability.  In fact, I would argue that the most powerful voices of change in the country, from Lincoln to King, have been those who can speak with the utmost conviction about the great issues of the day without ever belittling those who opposed them, and without denying the limits of their own perspectives.

In that spirit, let me end by saying I don't pretend to have all the answers to the challenges we face, and I look forward to periodic conversations with all of you in the months and years to come.  I trust that you will continue to let me and other Democrats know when you believe we are screwing up. And I, in turn, will always try and show you the respect and candor one owes his friends and allies.

(Cross-posted on the Senate blog: http://obama.senate.gov/blog/.)

Tags: Barack Obama, John Roberts (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 843 comments

  •  Thanks (4.00 / 29)

    Senator, thanks for posting here.  I am flattered that you chose to come to this forum and explain your position on the Roberts nomination, and I hope your comments are taken very seriously.
    •  OK, now, who's going to be first to call him ... (3.20 / 24)

      ... a fascist, or a Vichy Democrat, or such?

      What ... none of the usual baptism?

      Well reasoned, Senator, and well said. Thank you.

      The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

      by RonK Seattle on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 07:57:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you Senator Obama. (3.00 / 4)

        I advocate holding major Republican contributors accountable for their mean, harsh, immoral unchristian agenda that wreaks havoc on innocent people in this and other countries.

        I'm not going to spend alot of time complaining about the Republican Party which appears "Stuck on Herbert Hoover". I want to help you pass progressive legislation and not just to exercise a defensive holding operation in the Senate and the House.

        Not getting your legislation passed? Do it my way for once. Read my plan here.

        http://tinyurl.com/8ghl8

        http://revolution-nine.spreadshirt.com

        Where Republicans tread, innocent people end up dead.

        •  A rare breed of senator (4.00 / 11)

          I, like many people watching the Democratic convention last year, heard your speech and either decided outright or internalized the notion that you are indeed the savior--not only of the Democratic party--but also of politics in general.  Since then the mask has been lifted via a number of posts here regarding legislative decisions made in the last several months with which progressives may disagree, but this post brings for me the truth back into strong focus.  You're not a savior, and you're not all things to all people.  You're something much better: a rare breed of senator who not only speaks his mind openly and honestly, but intelligently and with much reflection.  This is surely one of the reasons you are holding strong in the top place in the New Political Review poll.  

          The most important thing you point out, I think, is the fact that people are not so much tired of Republicans, as they're frustrated with the procedural and rhetorical tactics the Republican majority uses on the public.  They've finally cottoned on, and more eyes will open as they close ranks ever tighter over every new scandal and investigation that emerges.  The last thing we want to do is fight fire with fire; remember, it's the tactics people hate as much as if not more than the policy decisions, secrecy, and corruption.  To win a strong majority again, we need to be intelligent, reflective, and honest; even as we counter the attacks and the justifications of the right.  And yes, that is hard work; but the alternative is to become the thing we despise, and ruin a tremendous opportunity to truly change the way people approach politics and policy.  

          Thank you for all your work, Senator.

          "Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed...something something."

          by Wojo on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 10:07:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, less divisiveness, but not ONE SIDEDLY (none / 0)

            It is true that there seems to be no gradation of criticism among Democrats.   Any deviation on any issue from any Democrat can be grounds for some group of purists to abandon them to the proverbial wolves -- and this kind of disloyalty to party and leadership is precisely what the Repug party is NOT about.   So acceptance of the leaders and small differences is precisely a part of party discipline that the Repugs have that the Democrats persistently lack.  I call it 'Morris-the-Cat liberalism' -- liberals and progressives are much more finicky about who they will support and about finding fault with good-faith leaders (though, like the hound that didn't bark, these forces never seem quite so hypercritical about the choruses of protestation to the effect that Tawana Brawley is other than full of it any way you slice it, etc.)  

            On this point, for example, the notion of demonizing a Democratic Party leader like Feingold based on voting for Roberts is precisely a case in point.  One can disagree with someone who fudges on affirmative action without, as is automatic in many circles, labelling their position 'racist' or better yet, one of my fav political phrases, 'objectively racist'.  Thus far Obama is right.   But he concedes we should not hold our tongue in the face of conservative misleadership.  OK, he could hardly say otherwise.   But should we "hold our tongue" when Feingold, Leahy, Levin, and numerous other Democrats who really should have known better display their lack of what unionists call 'fire in the belly' and voted for Roberts as the Chief Justice?  I think that the category of criticizing without bashing, of strongly disagreeing without then turning against someone needs to be expanded not contracted.   And that category is narrowed by the bashers on one side (those who don't distinguish between bashing and criticism, just like those in the machinery of US astroturf roots genocidalism who don't distinguish between 'judging' someone, or even vehemently and angrily criticizing them, and 'crapping' on them, or even viciously injuring them.)

            The 'positive thinking' politicos do as much harm to the concept of civil but vigorously democratic discourse as do the bashers.  Indeed, although not in Obama's case to my knowledge, they are often one and the same:  Don't you dare criticize the party hacks in the Rainbow Coalition (although it is right not to do so at Rainbow sponsored events from the podium), but, hey -- let em engineer hypersensitivity on radical Q, he's earned it.   Such is the "civility" of the liberal -- grovelling to the right and being blase about the oppression of authentic progressives.  This is in turn rooted in the 'mercy' component of real Christianity in our society, a tradition followed assiduously by nonChristians within the Christian family, as it were, as well: 'spare hate they're angels' mercy.   In short, mercy in almost all cases in our civilizations means "Don't shit up, shut up".  But shitting down is, well, precisely what is to be forgiven.  It is one of the reasons I reject utterly both Christian religion and Christian family values in practice.   What is said to be all about mercy and civility is really in practice all about servility not civility.

                 You will notice that in his myriad examples, Obama never once cited a single example of incivility or intolerance of the authentic left by those to their right.  Hmmm.  Never once did we hear him score the DLC people for what they say about Michael Moore.   Nor, even indirectly, did I see or hear any articulation of the criticism for the plague-on-both-your houses that many mainstream Democrats consider de rigeur when it comes to the worst of Republicans (with whom one quietly makes upkissing peace), and the least bigoted and obnoxious (all the more true in the face of oceans of protestation to the contrary -- see above discussion of choruses of protestation ostensibly on the left)  of authentic progressives to their left.

            I would be much more apt to listen to Obama if his concern for intra-Party civility was as vigorous in defense of largely unprotected forces to his left as it was to the powerful forces deviating to his right.

            Again, Obama is right to criticize the hostiley purist approach of supposed Democrats and progressives -- an approach in reality often if not usually driven by the sniping of 'red-headed league' type progressives who are really just using the pose of political purity to promote getting with the program, as with the incessant sniping at Dean's candidacy "from the left".  Indeed, there's plenty of kudos from above in them thar hills for sniping at those the power elite want sniped precisely in the name of progressive values when these are merely an indignant pretext or cloak.  

               One underlying reason Obama cites repeatedly is the implicit reasonableness of the position of those who 'right deviate' but presumably those who insist that the Iraq War was an imperialist venture from the start, or that the US is in fact an imperialist power are not deserving of such a largesse of moral generosity, as their (I should say our views) are not as 'reasonable' and worthy of respect.

            So I agree with the message that the Democrats should be more unified, in the ways Obama outlines.   In fact, such an approach, rather than deviating from the Repugs (who call the Democratic Party the 'Democrat' party -- no mention of that here).   So I respect Obama as the kind of mainstream politician who would make a good presidential candidate (and a vastly greater president than any we have seen in a LONG LONG time), but still insist that progressives have a properly different road to take, one that isn't bound by the need to make nice -- with those to their right, but only in the most limited way with those to their left.  Concomitantly, there is the need to not make nice with those most disfavored by the machine (on the Left, where else?)

            beyond a certain point -- after all, politicians never succeed that way; the Clinton formula is more the miles to the right-of-Nixon at the astroturf roots level direction of the Democratic Party elite as a whole today.

      •  Barak Obama for President (3.81 / 22)

        Right now.  We sure do need just this kind of leadership to heal our broken country.

        I can't wait!  President Obama.  :)

        "I don't want to name names, but they know themselves." Koffi Annan

        by Sue in NH on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:39:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Indeed RonK (3.25 / 4)

        I'm happy to see that you have endorsed civility. I couldn't agree more.

        Alito. Kennedy. Roberts. Scalia. Thomas.
        More important than ever: ERA NOW!

        by greeseyparrot on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:45:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree we have to be careful about civility (3.50 / 2)

          Some of the lack of civility around here probably springs from the horrible, nauseating, sinking feeling - not that a duly elected president shouldn't be able to have his or her appointments - but that George Bush has NEVER been duly elected. That his first term was handed to him by the Supreme Court (and I will forever hate them for that) and his second term by Diebold. Unless we can have true democratic elections in this country, everything else we do or say is useless. But at the same time, I agree that if we fight fire with fire, if we come across and shrill and unpleasant and unreasonable, we'll be ones ending up burned.

          I would LOVE to watch the inauguration of President Obama someday. January 2009 would NOT be too soon for me!

          •  This has gone on (3.66 / 6)

            Since Reagan and his henchman stole the 1980 elections by delaying the Iranian hostage realease date.

            I am honored  that Seantor Obama has decided to post here and impressed with his thoughts on these issues.

            I am simply concerned that playing fair and nice no longer gets progressives anywhere except another kick in the teeth while losing another election to a bunch of crooks.

            Who will stop this war of lies? Keith Olbermann May 23rd, 2007

            by Ed in Montana on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:50:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Clearly a Vichy Dem... (4.00 / 12)

        He acknowledges the take-no-prisoners tactics that have propelled the Republicans to their majorities, and then he suggests we should refrain from them according to a lengthy mess of high-browed arguments.

        How about just standing up for what is right and wrong.

        Q: "Do you think it was a mistake to invade Iraq?"

        Typical DLC answer, "Well,... we certainly have made mistakes since the invasion..."

        What the public wants to hear, "Yes, clearly it was a mistake. Saddam was not a threat, and he had nothing to do with 9/11. The Republicans who dragged America into this quagmire need to be given the boot."

        Usually a candidate only has to run against one Party. Ned Lamont had to fight the entire CT Rep Party, and 1/3 of the CT Dem Party. No wonder he lost.

        by DeanFan84 on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:51:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I hope that (4.00 / 3)

        He reads RenaRF's diary to him. It is a good one and well written. It sums up the frustration of the progressives well.

        Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. - Jesus

        by alonzotjones on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 05:03:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  can't wait (none / 0)

        till I hear the cries of "Apostasy!" "Deviation!" "No different than JoeMentum!!" "We must find a True Progressive Primary Challenger!""Not another dime from the 'Reality' Based Community!"

        If you want a Democratic Party that is more than a sure lock on a solid 40% of the electorate, then Obama should be heeded.  Or, continue on the course of being Karl Rove's Secret Weapon.

        Enterpriser; Hard core Libertarian: +6.63 / -4.41

        by jimsaco on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 10:37:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And in that spirit (4.00 / 41)

      of taking things seriously, I'd like to understand one thing a little more clearly. This is a very prolix and eloquent speech, but it's working two sides of the same issue at once.

      The central question it raises is: How does one determine whether a particular candidate or representative's position is a compromise or a legitimate attempt to re-vamp a progressive issue as more appealing? How many items on my checklist does a given representative have to fail before I can legitimately decide that they are not supporting the overall progressive cause?

      I mean, let's think about that 12yo girl. It's not just an operation; it's allowing her a chance to escape a life of penury and poverty by having to care for a child well before she's emotionally or financially ready to. And we all know that any 12yo girl who both needs an abortion and can't or won't tell her parents usually has damned good reasons for not doing so. So not to put too fine a point on it, but just how many 12yo girls have to be forced to bear children before the Democratic Party is willing to stand up and defend them?

      It's all well and good to say that we should agree to disagree in a civil manner, but just how civil do I have to be to people who want to give my tax dollars to religious organizations when I think it's a fundamental breach of my constitutional rights?

      But thank you for taking the community seriously, Senator; I do appreciate it.

      •  Have a litmis test for "Progressives" (4.00 / 8)

        but remember,that's not how most Americans decide to vote.  

        It's okay to withold your personal endorsement based on your sense of who meets your tests, but don't withold your vote, or lose track of the big picture when doing so.

        A vote for someone who opposes giving tax dollars to religious groups but favors parental notification for 12 year olds is TRUELY better than a vote for someone who would favor both.  

        We shoot ourselves in the foot when we destroy those who are our allies on the basic principles because we disagree with them on the small ones.

        One Example:  Lieberman should be replaced by someone like Rosa DiLauro.  Lieberman should not be replaced by someone like Nancy Johnson.

        Democrats Will Win if We Are The Party of the People see: Progressive Populism

        by jsmckay on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:20:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's not necessarily the point (3.94 / 19)

        He's not saying you have to vote for someone whose political ideals are different than your own. He's asking you to disagree without villifying them. In other words, you are free to have your beliefs that that 12 year old girl needs protection and that it's a moral imperative to provide it. However, show some understanding that other people do not have the same view of the moral imperative, and that slight deviation does not discount their views that choice, as a whole, should be protected.

        What I've always personally believed is that calling someone a collaborator does nothing to convince them why they should've voted differently. It just antagonizes them for the future. If you disagree with Joe Biden's record, explain why you disagree. Argue passionately for what you believe, and try and convince him otherwise. But I've never had my mind changed by being insulted and told to conform now or get kicked out of the party. And I doubt you have either. So, to me, that is the point, and it's not contradictory.

        •  We have tried that for over two decades (3.84 / 26)

          against a foe that has far more money, more access and is willing to use and and all tactics including criminal activity to lie, smear and paint anyone who does not agree with their sick agenda as deluded fools (at best) or outright traitors to our nation. It simply does not work.

          Wake up.

          •  Well (none / 1)

            How is alienating those who would stand beside you in that fight helping?
            •  How am I advocating alienating people? (none / 0)

              •  Well, the diary (none / 0)

                And my response to it were both regarding the attacking of fellow Democrats. Your response suggested, at least to me, that you disagreed with the "not punishing Democrats for wayward votes that don't conform to your progressive vision" idea, as you thought we had tried this strategy for decades and it had amounted to electoral losses.
                Thus, I'm asking how attacking Democrats, who are allies, for their votes is a better strategy. Because attacking them risks alienating them.
                •  Well I think you are taking far to simplistic (3.00 / 3)

                  and broadbrush reading and projection into what I was saying (actually you are railing against something I haven't even said).

                  If our "allies" are not voting correctly on the issues, and not standing up for our principles and articulating it to the electorate.. how are they an ally?

                  •  Allies (none / 1)

                    Do you have a litmust test for who can be your "ally"? How much does someone have to agree with you to be your ally? I'm not trying to attack here. I really would like to know where you're coming from on this.

                    I believe that it is possible to have a strategic ally that I disagree with on certain things, as long as we both agree on the goal at hand. I also believe that we can have allies who can become opponents without becoming enemies. I wouldn't want to make an enemy of an opponent for the simple reason that your opponent might become your ally at some future point.

                    The point that I think both VirginiaBelle and Barack are trying to make is not that you shouldn't point out what you believe is a mistake or where someone's actions disagree with your principles. I believe that their point is that you shouldn't make a possible ally your enemy by "making vicious and defamatory statements".

                    "We must love one another or die." - W. H. Auden

                    by marathon on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 10:23:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There's the crux (none / 0)

                      What's the "goal at hand"?  and should we be only concerned with the shortsighted "goal at hand"?  

                      We need to define one simple thing that unites us all:  WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR?

                      There are a lot of side issues, like abortion, which is divisive, controversial and definately NOT a core issue within the progressive movement.  Those issues we can debate and disagree on.  That's healthy.  But what we can't debate, what we can't disagree on, must be what we fight for.  What ARE we fighting for?

                      We are fighting for the right of everyone to have a chance to succeed.  To have a chance to escape poverty.  We are fighting for opportunity for all, not just the rich.  Obama touched upon this when he pointed out most Americans believe big companies are tilting the game in their favor over working folks and small businesses.  

                      Our enemies are the powerful corporations and the ultra-rich who support cheap labor conservatism.  Not just any corporation, not just any rich person, but those that actively and aggressively wield immense and undue power over our government and our politicians.  Those that use their influence to better their own self-interests at the expense of the American people.

                      So what defines our enemies from our allies in the context of Democratic Congressmen and women?  Those Dems that consistently represent corporate interests above the interests of the American people.  There ARE times when a corporate interest IS in the best interest of the American people.  But when it is obvious that what this Democrat is voting for is NOT in the best interests of the American people, when it is furthering the corporate interests at the expense of bringing the ideals we are fighting for, THEN it's time to put that person on notice.  It's time to start working to find a replacement for that person within our party.

                      It's OKAY for us to weed out the wolves in sheeps clothing.

                      While I think Obama has his heart in the right place, I'm disappointed that he doesn't understand this more clearly.  Or perhaps he does, and his post wasn't clear about this.

                      "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

                      by Pen on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:38:59 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Therin lies the crux (none / 0)

                      What's the "goal at hand"?  and should we be only concerned with the shortsighted "goal at hand"?  

                      We need to define one simple thing that unites us all:  WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR?

                      There are a lot of side issues, like abortion, which is divisive, controversial and definately NOT a core issue within the progressive movement.  Those issues we can debate and disagree on.  That's healthy.  But what we can't debate, what we can't disagree on, must be what we fight for.  What ARE we fighting for?

                      We are fighting for the right of everyone to have a chance to succeed.  To have a chance to escape poverty.  We are fighting for opportunity for all, not just the rich.  Obama touched upon this when he pointed out most Americans believe big companies are tilting the game in their favor over working folks and small businesses.  

                      Our enemies are the powerful corporations and the ultra-rich who support cheap labor conservatism.  Not just any corporation, not just any rich person, but those that actively and aggressively wield immense and undue power over our government and our politicians.  Those that use their influence to better their own self-interests at the expense of the American people.

                      So what defines our enemies from our allies in the context of Democratic Congressmen and women?  Those Dems that consistently represent corporate interests above the interests of the American people.  There ARE times when a corporate interest IS in the best interest of the American people.  But when it is obvious that what this Democrat is voting for is NOT in the best interests of the American people, when it is furthering the corporate interests at the expense of bringing the ideals we are fighting for, THEN it's time to put that person on notice.  It's time to start working to find a replacement for that person within our party.

                      It's OKAY for us to weed out the wolves in sheeps clothing.

                      While I think Obama has his heart in the right place, I'm disappointed that he doesn't understand this more clearly.  Or perhaps he does, and his post wasn't clear about this.

                      "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

                      by Pen on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:41:31 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  sorry for the double post. (none / 0)

                        website went wierd for a minute.

                        "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

                        by Pen on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:44:07 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Simplistic and boradbrush? (none / 0)

                    C'mon Mitch. It's not like your original post was terribly nuanced. You basically said that the GOP is more powerful and has more access, and their political techniques more vile and more extreme.

                    That's not difficult to understand, and I don't see that the poster misunderstood you. (I do however see you personalizing her disagreement with pop psychological soft taunts like "projection".)

                    What is just more difficult for some to understand is the concept of embracing the demagoguery and strongarm techniques of those you claim to revile.

                    'Fie upon the Congress' - Sen Bob Byrd

                    by Maxwell on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 10:30:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The politics of contrast is about rhetoric (none / 0)

                      Not votes.

                      I don't agree with Obama in the entirery of what he says, but it IS true that we can apply the politics of contrast without vilifying our own for, say, a Roberts confirmation vote.  That's for sure.

                      Head to Heading Left, BlogTalkRadio's progressive radio site!

                      by thereisnospoon on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:57:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Big picture politics... (none / 0)

                        ...just means strategy and execution. Not getting entangled in the quick fix of emotional reaction.

                        Shouting may be a symptom of argumentation, but it isn't an abiding priniciple. It may provide a momentary release, but the release is unto the prison of consequence.

                        'Fie upon the Congress' - Sen Bob Byrd

                        by Maxwell on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:01:20 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  By the definition of ally (none / 0)

                    An ally is not someone who always agrees with you. An ally is someone who will fight against your mutual enemy.

                    But if what I said above is overly-simplistic, what is your alternative. What are you saying we tried that and it didn't work to, and what is your alternative approach?

                    •  My definition is someone who will not cede ground (4.00 / 4)

                      to an intractable foe. That is what siding with the GOP, in this current political landscape is. There has not been any reciprocation when we do try and be accommodating to the other side of the aisle.

                      Voting against what is in the best interest for the broad electorate, is simply wrong. To do so, in the repeatedly failed belief that it will lead to some accommodation from the GOP is proven to be a fools errand.

                      My alternative... elect Democratic representatives and Senators who are party position and message disciplined and strictly enforce it until we can regain  modicum of power and control to allow a wider accommodation of a "bigger tent" when it comes to votes.

                      Look at the roll call votes. Show me were you see Rs breaking with any sort of regularity in our favor, and look at the other side of the column when Ds vote with the Rs.

                      We can't even hold our caucus together and as a result, we get slowly cut down vote after vote, session after session, year after year. The debate continues to move further and further rightward.

                      Enough.

                      My alternative... party discipline. Message discipline. And replacing those who can't hack it.

              •  Then what do you mean by "we tried that" (none / 0)

                VirginiaBelle said that we should disagree without vilifying them. Vilify means "to make vicious and defamatory statements" about someone. You said that we tried that and it didn't work. That leaves me, at least, with the impression that you are advocating that we ought to make vicious and defamatory statements about people.

                Wouldn't that alienate the people being vilified? Wouldn't it alienate you if someone vilified you? I must be missing something in what you were really advocating. Help me understand.

                I would say that the fault of the Dems in office isn't that they have just "disagreed and it didn't work" but that they either haven't disagreed or that they haven't been passionate enough or effective enough in their disagreement. You don't have to look any further than how John Kerry talking about the war in Iraq and how that came across last year to see examples of both.

                "We must love one another or die." - W. H. Auden

                by marathon on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 10:12:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think (4.00 / 6)

                  that we ought to be making "vicious and defamatory statements." But we ought to be do more than we currently are.

                  Thing is, if you say boo to the goopers they accuse you of "sitting in a lake of gasoline playing with fire."

                  It wasn't long ago that if you even asked questions about why we were in Iraq you were raked over the coals in the media and charged with being unamerican.

                  The measuring stick to decide what is or isn't over the line has been very lopsided for a long time. And the democrats who have been critisized here at kos have been those unwilling to upset that particular applecart.

                  If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

                  by brenda on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:05:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  When I said 'we tried that' (none / 1)

                  I meant we have tired for decades to remain civil, fair, reasonable, not give in to bare-knuckled sucker-puches, etc. etc.

                  It has led to borderline permanent minority status, our cvili liberties in tatters our nation the brink and criminal sociopaths who never give an inch in return.. ever.. controlling more than 2/3rds of our Gov.

          •  And that 1 was for what slowpitch? (none / 1)

        •  I'm not interested in changing Joe Biden's mind... (4.00 / 7)

          ...I'm interested in sending him into retirement. But if I were interested, the only way to do it is to threaten him with defeat, because all he actually believes in is his own career.

          "The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous."

          by expatjourno on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:56:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's (none / 0)

            Where does this quote come from ? Thank you
          •  Well, that's fairly cynical (4.00 / 2)

            But it still doesn't answer the question of is defeating Biden in exchange for a Republican a worthwhile endeavor? And what does withholding support without offering reasoning accomplish?

            For example, if I can't explain to you why a Democrat is better than a Republican, why in hell should I vote for the Democrat?

            FYI:(Democrats are better than Republicans because they understand the basic principle that government has an obligation to provide safety nets to our people and work for their prosperity. Because a government that abandons the welfare of its people is breaking it's promise to them. Because over 60 years after the fact, Social Security is still the best thing that happened to this nation. Because the Great Society is the American Dream. Because Republicans fundamentally misunderstand the meaning of the word community is to work together, not battle individually for the largest market share.)

            •  It's not an either or proposition (none / 1)

              You don't defeat Biden in the General Election, you defeat him in the PRIMARY.  Don't let him get out the gate!!!

              If Biden can defeat the Republican adversary in the General, then surely the guy who can defeat Biden can defeat the Republican in the general.

              You're taking a timid, cowardly approach to all this.  Time to be bold and take back our party!

              "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

              by Pen on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:47:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I beg to differ... (4.00 / 41)

          With all due respect, and this is to Sen. Obama, welcome to politics in the early 21st century.  Senator, for the last 30 years I have watched the media fundamentally change in America.  In those thirty years we have gone from a fact based system of news to a rumor based system of news.  I have always considered myself fairly moderate, but over these last 30 years I have seen myself, my friends, and people I admire vilified at every turn.  I have even experienced death threats.

          I watched as the right wing tried to convince the American people that members of Jimmy Carter's White House regularly did lines of cocaine at the bar at Club 54.  Bill Clinton was regularly accused of everything from drug running, to murder, to treason.  Al Gore, a decent and honest man (if nothing else), was made into a pathetic pathological liar.  John Kerry, with his magnificent military and political record, was accused of fabricating and lying about his experiences on swift boats in Vietnam.

          And yet, Senator, you claim that we are in the wrong for reacting to this.  Did you stand up, loudly and clearly, to defend Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry - did you ever express anger at the people who made these wild claims?  If you, or other Democratic "leaders" ever did, the occasion was certainly not a memorable one.  You come back and talk to us because we are the ones who provide you a forum to do so.  But on the national level, Senator, the other side owns the microphone.  What will you do for us to gain access to that microphone so that we no longer have to shout?

          Certainty generally is illusion, and repose is not the destiny of man. - OWH

          by blockbuster on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:59:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He clearly said fight back to charges (4.00 / 6)

            Read the piece again.  He is talking about the tone to take with people who are basically on our side or even who are not yet but persuadable.  He is not talking about the tone to take with the GOP attack dogs, although I suspect he believes in being respectful at all times.  Just because the right is filled with foaming attack dogs and robot Bush lovers doesn't mean any of us should emulate that style.  Remember--wqhat is the point of your speech?  To vent or to persuade?  If the latter, learn how to be persuasive.

            John McCain--he's not who you think he is.

            by Mimikatz on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 09:17:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Politics is no longer a boxing match. (4.00 / 7)

            To be blunt, the rules have changed.  Politics is no longer a boxing match with rules and referees; Republicans have made politics into a brutal and deadly knife fight.  The sooner the Democratic leadership realizes this, the better.
            •  Politics is no longer a boxing match (4.00 / 2)

              YES YES YES.  Your comment is not a revelation, but is certainly well stated.  The ascent of Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Pat Buchanan, and god knows who else in the republican part is clear evidence of this.  The Democrats must learn to

              A) Fightback! return every charge two or threefold.  Swiftboaters?  sure, which bar was Bush passed out in at the time? How much cocaine was in his pocket when he was arrested? How much of a bribe was paid and to whom? Was the girl he was with underage?

              B) Attack preemptively.  LBJ probably had it right when he accused his opponent of having "carnal relations with a farm animal" just to hear his opponent refute the charge.

              When we become disenchanted with the purity of Sen. Obama, let's think of John Roberts and Sam Alito when we think of the alternative.

              by Dave from Oregon on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 09:49:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Being shrill doesn't energize *our* base... (4.00 / 4)

            What I read into Sen Obama's response is this:  being shrill doesn't energize our base the same way that it energizes Republicans.  We also can't just copy the Republicans, we have to leapfrog them, since it's not yesterday's battle we're trying to win. Fighting fire with fire is only going to ensure we have an ample supply of charred ruins.  He's found a formula that works for him (elected by 70% to a seat previously held by a Republican), and he's trying to share it.   Clearly, he was helped by Jack Ryan's self-destruction, but luck favors the prepared, and he clearly was.

            He's also just pointing out the difference between empathy (good) and capitulation (bad).

          •  How Does One (4.00 / 10)

            Defend oneself, much less one's ideas against the barbarian?

            Rationality does not appeal to him.  Moderation is seen as weakness.  The spirit of bi-partisan compromise is too often, and at best, sneered at.

            The eloquence of your words, Senator, and the clarity of you mind give us all much to admire.  And I, for one, certainly do.  However, the reality of the current political regime in this country is that it does not value nor regard the reasonable idealism historically given to political behavior and tone that you express.

            As a people, we live in a time of renegades and brigands, of theives and character assassins.  As a politician, you are not facing like-minded political colleagues across the aisle in spite of what has traditionally been the case.

            Those days are over.

            When the barbarian is at the gate -- and many of us in this forum believe that is the case -- sweet reason from the breech will do little to overcome the threat.

            You and perhaps too many other Democrats speak softly.  But we need someone to wield the big stick.

            They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

            by Limelite on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 09:47:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think the Senator hit the nail... (none / 1)

              right on the head.  He's my guy for the next election.  His point is born out in your very post-your message is marginalized because you refer to your opponent as an irrational barbarian, a renegade, theif and brigand.  The tone of your rhetoric dictates whether you are listened to-or are dismissed as a left wing raving looney.  I happen to know many republicans that think Rush and Michael Savage are absolute stark raving mad-yet they still vote republican because of their core beliefs.  Weilding a bullhorn to shout liar liar doesn't really sway anyone.  The examples Obama gave of respected politicians who both dissent and are civil is the way to have our message heard.
            •  Were not trying to win (none / 1)

              an argument with a barbarian.  We're trying to persuade a solid majority of the American voting population that our vision, our values, and our policies are the ones that are best for America.  I fully agree with Sen. Obama's point that "whenever we exaggerate or demonize, or oversimplify or overstate our case, we lose.  Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose."  There is no reason that one cannot be passionate about a point of view without veering into exaggeration, demonization, or inaccuracy.  

              It drove me nuts during last year's campaign to keep seeing inaccurate or misleading statements made by Kerry being exposed as such in the MSM or on sites like FactCheck.org and Spinsanity.com.  Still more maddening, he'd keep repeating the errors even after they'd been exposed.  To my mind, he should never have had occasion to appear in those contexts or, as none of us is perfect, once an inaccuracy was pointed out, he should have corrected it instead of repeating it.  But every time he made false or inaccurate claims, whether by mistake or intent, he weakened his standing to challenge Republican inaccuracies, weasels, etc., and at the same time he created an unnecessary vulnerability that invited, and usually drew, a Republican attack, which then clogged up air and print time and took attention away from a positive focus on policies and democratic values.

              We will not win in a contest to see who can most dumb down the political debate.  Rove Republicans have already shown they will let nothing stop them in their race to be the first to the bottom.  Democrats running for office need to show that they are adults who are not going to be suckered into adolescent responses by taunting bullies, but also who are not going to let lies, manipulations, distortions, and the like go unchallenged, firmly and with fire when necessary.  Rope-a-dope didn't work for Gore, and it didn't work for Kerry.

              "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government....President Bush has repeatedly violated the law for six years." Al Gore

              by psnyder on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 01:44:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Bravo! (none / 0)

            Excellent reply and I await Obama's answer.

            What?  He's got down off his podium and he left the building?  You mean he doesn't even deign to speak to us in person?

            Is that all his post was?  Grandstanding?

            SPEAK TO US Obama!  I WANT TO BELIEVE!  Reply to this mans eloquent reply to you.

            "Take whatever you can, Steal whatever you can't take, Kill what you can't steal so no one else can have it." - Republican Business Philosophy

            by Pen on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:50:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  But what if it isn't (3.80 / 5)

          just a "slight deviation"?

          Frankly, I think that here is where this entire conversation turns. Because if it is true that our opponents are not people  of good faith with whom one can respectfully disagree, then no amount disagreing without being disagreeable will do.

          We have a man who condones the rape, murder and torture of women and children in the office of the president of the united states and the office of the attourney general. Not kind of, not sort of, not "Gee, we just didn't know." But really, truly. The soon to be released photos and movies will make it absoulutely clear that this was a conscious and deliberate policy, just as the non-response to Katrina was.

          How can we hold any quarter with people who make such policies? I'd really like to know.

          We can disagree on whether or not the characterization above is correct or not. I am not perfect, maybe I missed something? But once you reach the same conclusions, it seems to me that an entirely different strategy is called for.

          If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

          by brenda on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 09:21:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wait... (4.00 / 2)

            I'm not sure how to react to this, because I'm not sure how attacking Democrats for their votes relates to this post. But he's right about reaching out to moderate Republicans, and language like that is not really going to do it. We need to pick up 5 votes from Republicans to block any motion. So to refuse to negotiate with any Republican negates any chance at success.

            Lastly, I would hope that we do not judge standards by those we oppose. We shouldn't torture people just because Al-Quaeda does. We shouldn't be rabid foaming at the mouth partisans just because Republicans are. Why should we lose our dignity just because they have already lost there's?

            •  Unfortunately (none / 1)

              It's not simple tone and demeanor that will reach the average Republican. They're none to fond of some of our policies - or rather, they've been spun about said policies and don't understand what our platform really is.  The key addition to politesse is explaining where our platform benefits them directly. Without the sugar, though, the time for meaningful dialogue never arrives.  At least that's how I'm taking Senator Obama's diary and many subsequent posts by others. The thing is, those who disagree have a point - when you're mere existence has already been villified by the Republican smear machine, the best you can hope for is to be standing there with a smile, and a jack, when the wheels fall off their bus.

              When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. -Benjamin Franklin

              by MissAnneThrope on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:18:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  "People of good faith" (3.66 / 3)

            Obama, it seems to me, is not saying that ALL Republicans are people of good faith. He specifically talked about "moderate Republicans".

            He also talked about how we "frame" our message so that middle of the road Americans can hear it - he has found that stridency, whether from the right or the left, turns people off.

            And he advocated calling people out who were making false claims. I don't get the impression from what he says that he is in any way advocating giving up. He is talking about civil discourse.

            What he did not address, as was mentioned above, is how to build a more progressive majority when the right wing has leashed the broadcast media and conscripted preachers,  the main sources of information for most Americans.

          •  A matter of the audience (4.00 / 3)

            I don't think the point is to "disagree without being disagreeable" with the hard righters.  Obviously civil discourse with them is useless.  They aren't the ones we need to convince of anything, nor could we.

            The point is to take a more civil tone with those that are predisposed to agree with us on our core values.  Frankly, that's the majority of Americans.  Senator Obama is right in noting that these people a much more persuaded by those who adopt a civil tone.

            Forceful disagreement without resorting to extreme accusations and namecalling, etc. is what ultimately persuades.  It doesn't mean that you compromise your positions, it means that you show some understanding for those that disagree (again I'm not talking about the right wing here).

            In the case of the 12 year old girl it means stating to one who is pro-choice, but is in favor of parental notification - "I can see why you feel parental notification is appropriate, but if a 12 year old girl needs an abortion and does not feel she can tell her parents there are probably very good reasons for that.  I think allowing her to have the opportunity to feel safe and secure in her extremely difficult decision is more important than requiring her parents to be notified."  It does not mean accusing the person of being anti-choice.

            -4.75, -6.31 "Violent means will give violent freedom." - Gandhi

            by DemUnity on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 10:44:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ok, I can understand that. (4.00 / 3)

              The point is to take a more civil tone with those that are predisposed to agree with us on our core values.  Frankly, that's the majority of Americans.  Senator Obama is right in noting that these people a much more persuaded by those who adopt a civil tone.

              I must be mis-reading his post because I don't disagree with the quote above. What I reject is the notion that I should "play nice" with people who.....knowing the truth about the extent of torture....I mean, you do know that your representative saw these photos and movies and said nothing. That is where I have a problem.

              If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

              by brenda on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 10:55:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Tax dollars to religious organizations (4.00 / 11)

        It's all well and good to say that we should agree to disagree in a civil manner, but just how civil do I have to be to people who want to give my tax dollars to religious organizations when I think it's a fundamental breach of my constitutional rights?

        Exactly. So tell me why we're supposed to sit back and allow the Dems to play nice with the Republicans and not fight back?

        I see all kinds of red when I see the Christian Taliban running my country and my schools.

        Does that not outrage you, Mr. Obama?

        What exactly does outrage the Democrats? I'm getting the feeling that NOTHING does!

        Moderation has gotten us nowhere. Civility has gotten us nowhere.

        When will the Democrats wake up?

        •  Because running on an anti-christian platform (3.00 / 3)

          will not give Dems the win... but that doesn't mean we have to play nice with the Repubs, it just means that some good Dems will slightly stray on a few issues, but as long as we have a solid progressive platform, we can shift America leftwards, where we then can discuss anti-christianism with America.

          Gah, that's incoherent.  It's a shame I'm late for class...

          Boris: You're a tyrant, and a dictator, and you start wars!
          Napoleon: Why is he reciting my credits?

          by B man on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:06:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I can't believe how so many people here... (3.50 / 6)

          are completely missing the point of Obama's post.  Not EVERYONE agrees with you.  You have a right to hold your views, that's fine.  But to speak in such absolutes ultimately accomplishes nothing but makes you feel superior to your opponents.  There is a pathology here which causes people to think that they have informed themselves so well that they are COMPLETELY correct and anyone who thinks otherwise is a worthless appeaser.  Not everyone is an idiot and there are reasons that someone could hold a view that is opposed to yours.  It is possible to argue your point while still allowing yourself to see why someone else might think otherwise.  NOTHING gets accomplished by DEMANDING that your ONE view be the only that is acceptable.  It's funny that your sig talks about fascism, because that's the hallmark.  Communism or fascism especially in Africa, often starts out with things that are well intentioned and seem good on the surface, but it is ultimately fascism because no discourse takes place.  Our politcians have many views to listen to, not just yours or the far left.  Everyone gets to choose what their own test for politicians is, but to expect and then decry someone for not being pure does not recognize that your congressman SHOULD listen to views that oppose yours.  Looked at practically, if there are only two choices to be had (which there currently are) then pick the one that agrees with you more.  Politicians are generally as conservative or progressive as their constituency will allow.  We overly fault our politicians for listening to others.  If you want more progressive politicians, you don't do it by shooting yourself in the foot and helping elect a Republican.  You do it by slowly building a movement and reclaiming the dialogue so that you can convince the public.  The battle is won by convincing your neighbor, much more so than your politician.    

          Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

          by MatthewBrown on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:01:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understand (3.25 / 4)

            But I'm not sure you understand.

            The point is, and many here have expressed it, this is not "politics as usual."

            Look, we all know politicans lie. But this group has taken it to a new level.

            This is a party that impeached a President just because they COULD.

            This is a country now being indoctrinated on a daily basis by a corporate media that is in the pocket of the Republican Party.

            This is a country that can no longer trust that their votes are even counted.

            If I sound facist, absolute, angry, it is because I don't know how else to sound. We have tried to talk intelligently; we have tried to tell the truth; we have tried to work with the "distinguished colleagues across the aisle" and what has it gotten us? Nowhere.

            To be honest -- all I want is for the Democrats to stand up for what they believe in, in the same way people here do. I want outrage and anger over corruption. I want outrage and anger over the appointment of polluters to the EPA. I want outrage and anger over the destruction of FEMA and the.... I could go on and on and you know I can.

            In another time and place, I would agree with Mr. Obama 100% percent. Believe me, I would have. I would have agreed with you.

            But those days are long gone. I'm sorry, but I believe it is too late. If we are fighting now amongst ourselves, then that is good. It is good because it will be the necessary dialogue as we figure out how to define our message.

      •  We all know? (4.00 / 3)

        You posted : "And we all know that any 12yo girl who both needs an abortion and can't or won't tell her parents usually has damned good reasons for not doing so"
        The reasons this girl has are unknown to me.  I do know that reasonable people disagree about 12 year olds and their decision making abilities.  If parents are in the picture, then default position is that parent(s) would be primary in discussing this issue with a 12 year old.
        You are fortunate to have such a well honed view of right and wrong.  Unfortunately, many of us feel conflicted and support choice, but with issues such as minors and operations still not decided.

        "I do think it is kind of sad when everybody who owns a laptop thinks they are Thomas Paine" Redlief take on Helen Thomas, 2008

        by redlief on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:33:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  To put it blutly... (none / 1)

          It's because dad is the father. 12 tear olds don't get pregnant without having been sexually abused at some point in their lives. It just doesn't happen.

          If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

          by brenda on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 09:39:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (none / 0)

            that's one damned awfully absolute statement ...

            little doubt it happens ...

            me? no, not sure what to do about it in the case you've cited ... i think i'm against parental notification laws, but can appreciate (but not entirely understand) why folks could take the opposite opinion ...

            Which pundit most resembles Ruby Rhod?

            by wystler on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 11:12:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If I came accross (none / 0)

              as making an absolute statement I didn't mean to. I don't know what the statistics are but I'm willing to guess that, in the majority of cases, dad, or brother, or uncle, is the father. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I really don't think so.

              How's that? better?
              :)

              If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse - George Carlin

              by brenda on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:10:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yeah, i feel better (none / 0)

                even if it's one, that's far too many ... i don't want to place the blame for an out of control pre-teen on sexual abuse by an older family member ... this is far too complex for broad-brushing ... thanks

                Which pundit most resembles Ruby Rhod?

                by wystler on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:40:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  my wife was a midle school teacher (none / 0)

                in a "ghetto" area. most young girls getting pregnant between 12-14 most certainly were not bearing the child of their father, brother, uncle, or cousin, usually it was just an older boy from the 'hood.

                mydd straw poll vote: 1. other (gore) 2. unsure 3. dodd 4. edwards 5. obama

                by colorless green ideas on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 04:57:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  What Brenda said. (4.00 / 2)

          "We all know... she has damned good reasons for doing so" was just rhetoric-ese for "We all know that Dad or Stepdad or Uncle or Coach is the father."
        •  As far as who's probably the father, (none / 0)

          you've been answered by others.

          But that is why getting consent from either the parents or a judge is such a reasonable position.  Is it that hard to run on?  "Either the parents or a judge... cause sometimes the parents are involved..."

          The vast center of voters ought to be able to understand that.

          •  They understand that much better (none / 1)

            than an adolescent girl understands how to hire her own attorney, file an application for a hearing in order to gain access to a judge in the first place, and then demonstrate conclusively that she meets a definitive set of qualifying criteria more challenging than what is required of a 30 year-old woman who seeks an abortion.

            All of that and more is what most states' parental involvement laws require, they are written that way expressly in order to make judicial bypass a daunting obstacle course, and all the easily-understood slogans are nothing but marketing -- not only for the "vast center," but for people like us.

            As any pregnant teenager could tell you, the devil is in the details.

      •  Here's one answer. (4.00 / 7)

        If somebody has been on the correct side of a lot of issues, doesn't it make sense to give him the benefit of the doubt?  I'd suggest that some of the rhetoric the Senator talked about is where somebody has voted the right way 99 times and some people still want to declare that person a sell out, a disgrace and a trator for the one vote they don't like.  Even if that one vote is important, people are far too tempted to pull out the "vote the right way this time or you're a Nazi" argument when that one vote is all they care about today.

        Editor of the Harvard Law Review and top 7% of his class vs. Mr. 894 out of 899. How has having a stupid President worked out the last eight years?

        by Tod on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 08:37:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is THE answer (3.87 / 8)

          You have to look at the overall body of work.  The idea that Russ Feingold, one of the most progressive  voices in the Senate, the only one to vote against the Patriot Act, the first Senator to call for withdrawal from Iraq, etc, etc, should be thrown under the bus because of one bad vote is just absurd.

          Many people were like "oh well, Feingold voted for Roberts, I guess I need a new candidate for '08."  Here is the news flash:  There will not be a candidate who agrees with you on every single issue, unless you run for President yourself!

          When someone consistently votes the right way, you need to give them the benefit of the doubt if they cast one or two votes you don't understand.